nice paper Lieven From: Gert Reunes Chairman Belgium stutterers Date: 10/1/99 Time: 3:33:30 AM Remote Name: 184.108.40.206 Comments You aren t a hidden stutterer anymore Lieven... Best regards, Gert I hope I will see you in 2001 (6th worldcongress for people who stutter) Re: nice paper Lieven From: Grommen Date: 10/4/99 Time: 1:35:24 AM Remote Name: 220.127.116.11 Comments Gent will be a delicious place to hold the next international congress; as two of my children are studying at the local university, I visited it yesterday: I find it one of the most precious treasures of Western Europe. Re: nice paper Lieven From: Gert Reunes Date: 10/4/99 Time: 7:46:42 AM Remote Name: 18.104.22.168 Comments Geen interesse om een workshop te geven??? Re: nice paper Lieven From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/16/99 Time: 11:02:03 AM Remote Name: 22.214.171.124 Comments Eigenlijk begin ik daar wel goesting in te krijgen. Misschien ook wel om al die mensen van de internet discussiegroepen eens in levende lijf te ontmoeten. Ja, ik denk er serieus over, Gert. Covert stuttering From: Gail Lind, Educ. SLP Date: 10/5/99 Time: 11:41:22 AM Remote Name: 126.96.36.199 Comments In reading about your experiences with covert stuttering, it became apparent that within the recent past, my mother shared with me that she is (what I now know to be) a covert stutterer. While I was sensitive and interested, I did not fully appreciate what she was confiding in me, and I was at a loss as to what I could say or do to help. Given this, what type of support/recommendations would you suggest I give my mother who is currently 75 years old and still affected by her covert stuttering. She has obviously worked so hard on covering this over the years, that when I casually mentioned mom's identified difficulties to a sister, she expressed no understanding or acknowledgement as to what I was talking about. Re: Covert stuttering From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/5/99 Time: 11:57:09 AM Remote Name: 188.8.131.52 Comments Given the age of your mother what change is there to be expected? As I mentionned in the paper,I am not a specialist at all in the fiel. So my advice is to consult a psychologist with experience in speech related problems. On the other hand as your mother intended to express something hidden about her speech functioning, she must have had the emotional need to do so. Listening and trying to understand will surely be important to her. Maybe she hoped that you could understand her with your background. Perhaps you shoud ask for a full story: ask explications and examples. Perhaps this will give her some relief for the hidden pain... Sincerely, Situations From: Barry Howze Date: 10/7/99 Time: 12:43:30 PM Remote Name: 184.108.40.206 Comments I noted with interest the fact that you have no trouble in professional speaking situations where the words spoken are of great importance but have trouble in trivial situations like placing an order in a bakery. I have had similar experiences myself. To what do you attribute this seeming paradoxical behavior? I tend to think it is because, for some reason, I feel more entitled to speak in the serious situations than the trivial ones. Whatever the felling it must be well below the level of conscious awareness. Barry Howze Re: Situations From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/8/99 Time: 9:00:05 AM Remote Name: 220.127.116.11 Comments It has not always been that easy. It took me years and a lot of work to obtain that confidence in my professional situation. There seems to be a paralel between the fluency and my my knowledge (in a broad sense: intellectual and emotional) of the field. I guess when I should go to the baker on a daily basis, there should be also more fluency. "Bringing it out" From: Gina Waggott Date: 10/8/99 Time: 3:59:27 PM Remote Name: 18.104.22.168 Comments Hi Lieven, What a great paper! Not only do I like the content, but the way you structured it and made it personal was excellent too. Being a closet stutterer myself, I have had much contact with people in a similar situation. The question I am asked most of all is: 'What do you do if you can't/won't "bring the stutter out"'? - i.e. make a conscious decision to be an 'overt' stutterer? I won't go into my own personal experience here, but what are your suggestions to people who ask this question? What, in your opinion, would be the first steps to take to "full acceptance" and overt stuttering? With kind regards, -Gina W Re: "Bringing it out" From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/9/99 Time: 8:41:58 AM Remote Name: 22.214.171.124 Comments Thanks for your kind appreciation. Well, I think the answer to the question is quite simple: you have to be aware of the problem. Awareness is the first important thing. And second there must be the will to change. Somebody who's happy in a given situation, doesn't feel the need to change. When a closet stutterer is honest toward himself, he only can recognise that his stuttering is a permanent handicap. So the third condition is honesty. Perhaps the last element is a warm audience to feel confortable with the outcoming. Kind greetings. Thanks From: Scott A. Date: 10/14/99 Time: 7:43:44 PM Remote Name: 126.96.36.199 Comments I just want to say thanks for your article. It made me think about the fact that I may be a covert stutter. I am 21 years old and have stuttered for most of my life. My stutter, however is pretty mild, so in most cases I try to hide it. This hasn't always worked though. Most of my friends know that I have a stutter, but for some reason I still don't like to admit it. In the past, I have only talked to my parents about it. Lately however, I have opened up a little bit and have talked to my girlfriend. Slowly but surely I'm comming into the open. Thanks again for your article and GOD bless you with all you do! Peace in CHRIST, Scott Re: Thanks From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/16/99 Time: 10:54:32 AM Remote Name: 188.8.131.52 Comments I believe we live in a wonderfull time: through the expanding possibilities of comunication everybody can find his way out of darkness. I am glad you are on the way of accepting; it is my strong conviction that the simple fact of accepting will increase your fluency. Greetings. New Awarness From: Jill Wyatt Date: 10/16/99 Time: 10:29:18 AM Remote Name: 184.108.40.206 Comments What a wonderful paper. As a grad student, your paper has given me a new appreciation for the difficulties faced daily by the covert stutterer. Hopefully I will be able to use this new understanding when working with fluency clients. Jill Wyatt Re: New Awarness From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/16/99 Time: 10:59:04 AM Remote Name: 220.127.116.11 Comments I am glad to hear you learned from my writings. As a healthcare worker (MD) myself I' ve learned that each indivudual has his own unique story. It seems to me you have the right attitude to take care of others. I wish you a lucky career ! Blessings. New support group member From: Bernie Weiner (email@example.com) Date: 10/16/99 Time: 1:49:58 PM Remote Name: 18.104.22.168 Comments Thanks for your great paper, Lieven. We have a new member of our support group who is a covert stutterer. She is a master of substitution and using tricks to avoid her blocks. Just coming to her first meeting was a big step for her. I have steered her to the on-line conference, and I hope she reads your paper. She will know that she is not unique in hiding her stutter. A New Understanding From: Russ Hicks Date: 10/18/99 Time: 10:11:01 AM Remote Name: 22.214.171.124 Comments Lieven, Your paper has added immeasurably to my understanding of covert stutterers. Thank you! I hope we can generate some meaningful converstations on Stutt-L on this topic. Thanks again! Russ Great Paper, Lieven From: Bob Quesal Date: 10/19/99 Time: 11:57:09 AM Remote Name: 126.96.36.199 Comments Excellent paper! You really do a nice job of explaining the "paradox." I will add your paper to my list of readings for my graduate stuttering class in the spring. It will provide the students with considerable insight. Bob Quesal Re: Great Paper, Lieven From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/19/99 Time: 2:38:19 PM Remote Name: 188.8.131.52 Comments Thanks Bob, I'v just had a look at your interesting paper, about all kind of prejudices regarding stuttering and stuttering therapy. It helped me structuring a lot of information I gathered past years reading the messages on stutt-L. Kind greetings. Lieven --Wonderful Contribution From: Steve Hood Date: 10/22/99 Time: 12:44:46 PM Remote Name: 184.108.40.206 Comments GREAT PAPER -- Lieven Ever since reading the works of Henry Freund, as well as Earnest Gouglass and Bruce Quarrington back in mu student days, I have been intrigued and fastinated by the PWS who "interiorizes" the overt and behavioral aspects of stuttering. Clearly, we need more research in this area. From my own experiences of some thirty years, I am aware of many "interiorized stutterers" who are unwilling or unable to allow themselves to be more open, honest and accepting of stuttering. In spite of the pain and suffering, and in spite of the way they allow themselved to be "handicapped" and "disabled" by stuttering, they often refuse treatment. When they do enter therapy, they often do so with the hope that therapy will allow them to continue to hide stuttering in a "better way." Since this is the case, we are less likely to see them in the clinic, and less likely to have them participate in research. Many clinicians find it difficult to understand the extremes these people go to in order to interiorize and avoid. Students find it even more difficult. THANK YOU. Thank you for providing this much needed eye-opener. Steve Hood Re: Lieven --Wonderful Contribution From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/23/99 Time: 2:55:46 AM Remote Name: 220.127.116.11 Comments Thanks Steve. My paper is my little contribution to the self help community. I have so much learned from reading your and others postings on the stutt-l discussion groups, that I felt obliged to do something for the community. Thanks for your commitment. Thank You From: Aimee Klemp Date: 10/22/99 Time: 12:53:42 PM Remote Name: 18.104.22.168 Comments Thank you for commenting on this very interesting topic. Your paper reinforced the fact that stuttering is not just a speech problem, it also encompasses the attitudes and fears that accomany it. As a student of speech pathology, your paper has taught me to treat each person as an indiviudal and to dig deeper. What I see on the outside doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. Thanks! Re: Thank You From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/23/99 Time: 2:55:17 AM Remote Name: 22.214.171.124 Comments I am very glad to have contributed to a better understanding of the stuttering person. Your statement that every PWS should be viewed as an entirely original problem is crucial. I am convinced you have the right attitude to become a good SLP. Kindest greetings and lucky carreer ! Covert stuttering student From: L. Gustafson Date: 10/22/99 Time: 4:42:28 PM Remote Name: 126.96.36.199 Comments How can I best help a student increase his confidence in his abilities (5th grade. He is mildly dysfluent with phrase repetitions but is severely self-conscious and will not speak in a group situation. Re: Covert stuttering student From: Lieven Grommen Date: 10/23/99 Time: 2:51:42 AM Remote Name: 188.8.131.52 Comments You hit the key-point. The big problem is that the hidden PWS first hast to recognize the problem. Secondly he has to accept it and find the apropriate advisors. I hope this conference and my own paper can help you find some keys to access him. Perhaps he should read some of the postings... I personaly found participating the self-help community ( the stuttering discussionlists on the internet: stutt-L etc) most helpfull. Kind greetings.