presenter of this paper has consented to have a personal email address posted here if you
wish raise further questions and/or comments. Contact Walter Manning at 

The long journey

From: Jonathan Bashor
Date: 10/4/99
Time: 4:22:13 PM
Remote Name:


The journey is indeed a long one. I have just reentered therapy. My last attempt was 20 years ago. I can
understand why some people have tried and stopped, why some people want to try it on their own. I sought a
therapist in the Sheehan tradition. Although I believe the speech block is a neurologic event, that doesn't help
me at all dealing with my stuttering. For me, the path seems to be learning how to slide/glide through blocks
with prolongations and easy onsets while maintaining eye contact. I am confident that together with my
therapist, whom I really respect and trust, I will be able to converse easily. I loved the analogy between
kayaking and stuttering. Whenever I feel a little overwhelmed with reaching this goal, I remind myself that all I
have to do is focus on the present moment. The last moment is already gone, I can't change it. The next isin't
here yet, I won't worry about it. Thanks for your paper ! 

Re: The long journey - for Jonathan

From: Walt Manning
Date: 10/23/99
Time: 10:08:28 AM
Remote Name:


Thank you for your comments. Good wishes for your most recent treatment experience. Kayaking and lots of
other things seem completely impossible at the outset. It's amazing though, that with lots of practice, we are
able to do things that we never imagined. Unfortunately, as you said, the journal is long and often difficult. 

Though the most basic reason for getting stuck may be neurophysiological in some way, with LOTS of
practice, the (CNS) system can be restructured/remodeled. I haven't had the chance to read many of the papers
posted in this conference but there are probably references to support this idea of CNS remodeling as a result
of therapy. If not, I can give you some. 

Your article

From: John Harrison
Date: 10/7/99
Time: 10:21:45 PM
Remote Name:



Great paper. A real piece of work. I remember the terrific piece you did on the similarities between stuttering
and kayaking for Letting GO several years ago. It looks like you've embellished on it, and it all makes perfect
sense. I particularly like the power of analogies because they help to make things clear by showing the same
principles at work in a different setting. 

I also like your holistic approach to stuttering therapy. You seem to have touched on all the key points. 

You really have a handle on this. 

John H.

Thoughts on perfectionism

From: Gail Lind, Educ. SLP
Date: 10/8/99
Time: 3:30:50 PM
Remote Name:


While reading your article and your concept of chasing the "Fluency God", I couldn't help but think about
several of my stuttering students in recent years that have been very intelligent and high-achieving
perfectionists. Do you find that perfectionistic tendencies often negatively affect stutterers and what they regard
as their "ultimate goal"?

Re: Thoughts on perfectionism

From: Walt Manning
Date: 10/8/99
Time: 4:44:09 PM
Remote Name:


Hello Gail- 

I should probably wait and think more about your questions over the weekend and reply on Monday. But I
seemed to be hooked on this interactive conference experience and can't help myself. Or, possibly I'm being
perfectionistic! I seem to remember that a year or so ago there was a thread about perfectionism on the Stutt-L
network and if Woody Starkweather reads this post he may have some comments. Of course I too have seen
several clients that are looking for perfect speech and have other perfectionistic tendencies. But, as Bob Quesal
commented in his paper at this conference, people who stutter are far more different than they are alike. When
a client is extremely perfectionistic it does get in the way of change - change of any kind. It's the same for
clinicians too, of course. Many articles have been written by PWS suggesting that "less (control) is better",
fluency is not necessary "good" and suttering "bad", "it's OK to stutter",it's a good idea to "let go" of hiding
stuttering, etc. So yes, becoming less perfectionistic and less inhibited in general is usually a help in many
respects, for becoming more fluent and for living life. Unless you're a rocket scientist and you're not sure
whether your calculations are in Newtons or poundrels. That may not make sense. Anyway, thanks for your
question and I hope others have some comments on this. 

Re: Thoughts on perfectionism

From: John Harrison
Date: 10/10/99
Time: 4:23:04 AM
Remote Name:




My experience is that perfectionistic tendencies are a MAJOR hazard for people who stutter. I've observed that
almost all the people I know who stutter have a dash of this perfectionism in their system. The trick is to
switch the emphasis from speaking in a way that's perfect to speaking in a way that's fun -- that gives pleasure
to the speaker. When you change the emphasis away from "getting it right" to doing it in a fun way, the
person's fluency often improves, and sometimes dramatically so. 

John H.

Re: Thoughts on perfectionism

From: Gail Lind
Date: 10/10/99
Time: 10:41:21 AM
Remote Name:


John - Thanks for the suggestion in looking at the desire for increased fluency through a "fun" approach. I
know the idea of "easy speech" is often useful with my elem. students, it seems appropriate to add "easy 'fun'
speech" to the concept!

Making Changes

From: Meghan Culey
Date: 10/13/99
Time: 10:03:24 PM
Remote Name:


Hello, My name in Meghan and I am a graduate student at Minnesota State University, Mankato. I enjoyed
your article and appreciated the analogy of stuttering and kayaking - this made a lot of sense to me. You stated
that you believe someone who stutters needs to make changes in their speech as well as in their lives for
progress to begin (that the two go hand-in-hand). Being that you have worked with both children and adults,
have you seen this progress easier for adults rather than children? The reason I ask is because I thought
fluency may be easier to achieve in children but it also seems it would be easier for adults to recognize these
changes and be able to move forward. Thank you for any comments you may have. Meghan

Re: Making Changes

From: Walt Manning
Date: 10/14/99
Time: 9:28:08 AM
Remote Name:


Hello Megan- 

Thank you for your inquiry and please say hello to Dr. Kuster. First of all I'm pleased that the kayaking
analogy made sense to you. I guess it makes more sense if you've actually been upside down in some rapids.
However the clinician does it it's important to relate to the client's experience of fear and helplessness and to
describe your interpretation of that experience based on something you know about. For adults who have
stuttered for decades, so much of their life- their decisions about what to do or not do, are likely to be tied
together with even the possibility of stuttering. Adults often have to make many changes in living their life-
things they may not be likely to directly associate with stuttering (asking questions, taking part in a meeting,
becoming a member of a group, adding junk words/starters, etc. So, with adults, there is often a lot more
changing and learning that needs to occur it may take a long time to get off-center and move in better
directions. With childern there hasn't been the opportunity to learn as many maladaptive behaviors and ways
of thinking about the problem so it's usually easier to undo or modify ways of responding to their stuttering.
Having said that, there are a few children who very quickly try to adjust to their stuttering by adapting many
avoidance and escape behaviors. Generally, especially with the involvement of the parents, everything is easier
with children if you can get to them early enough. Hense the debate about early intervention you've likely read
at this conference. That's my opinion anyway and maybe some others will respond. Thanks for your your

Re: Making Changes

From: Meghan Culey
Date: 10/15/99
Time: 4:06:51 PM
Remote Name:


Thank you so much for your comments - they are very insightful. Little by little it gets easier to try and
understand :) Meghan

Your Paper

From: Jeff Shames
Date: 10/17/99
Time: 9:21:55 AM
Remote Name:


Thanks you for your wonderful paper. It all made a great deal of sense to me. 

I first heard you speak of the kayaking analogy several years ago, when you spoke at the Speak Easy
Symposium. Analogies are a very good way to better understand these issues. I have used the examples of
walking on an icy sidewalk or a tightrope to help my non-stuttering friends understand what we go through. 

I appreciate how well yout explained the nuances of one's speech becoming more fluent, and one's blocks
becoming less severe. At the times when my fluency has increased I have felt increased pressure when people
have mentioned this, as if the underlying meaning is "Now you are fluent and ever must remain so". Your
mentioning that the tribute can also be for different ways to approach speaking or speech blocks is an
important one to note.

Walt Manning: MAP

From: Jerry Johnson
Date: 10/17/99
Time: 8:28:19 PM
Remote Name:


I was intrigued by your topic, especially MAP. A few year ago I developed a "M.A.P.: Monitor, Action, and
Performance. A Therapy Data Recording System." My abstract reads as follows: "The Monitor, Action, and
Performance: M.A.P. data system encourages maximal child/clinician interaction. M.A.P. demands the setting
of specific monitored behavioral objectives and the development of self-help skills. This data recording system
is generic and can be used with a variety of therapies." My use has been with kids who stutter and it 'gives
them something to do' outside of the therapy room. If you are interested I'll send you a copy.

Map For Change

From: Meghan Telitz
Date: 10/18/99
Time: 9:46:16 AM
Remote Name:


I really appreciated your article. There were many points I thought were crucial to fluency therapy. First of all,
through educating people who stutter about the anatomy and physiology of the speech mechanisms, it allows
them the insight that speech is not an automatic phenomenon that occurs when we open our mouths. I also
appreciate the positive attitude you exude. It is so very important to focus on the victories, no matter how
small, in order to keep the motivation. Thank you for your time.

Meghan x 2, Jerry and Jeff

From: Walt Manning
Date: 10/18/99
Time: 5:33:46 PM
Remote Name:


Thanks to both Meghans and Jeff for your comments - it's fun to see how people react to the paper. To Jerry,
I'd be happy to see a copy of your M.A. P. for recording data- we're always looking for something to have
the kids do outside of the treatment setting. 

Fluency Article

From: Susan Olson
Date: 10/18/99
Time: 8:30:11 PM
Remote Name:


I really enjoyed reading your article. The analogies with kayaking were not only interesting but were excellant
illustrations. You mentioned that ASHA is creating a recognition program for clinicians working with people
who stutter. Is this reference available yet?

Speciality Recognition

From: Walt Manning
Date: 10/19/99
Time: 10:40:49 AM
Remote Name:


Susan- What I was referring to in my article was the speciality recognition program now underway through
ASHA's Special Interest Division # 4. Last year a Commission was formed which is processing the
applications of an initial cadre of specialists. Once this initial group is in place, mentors will be selected who
will help to guide additional people through the process of becoming a specialist. The best way to become
involved in this process is buy becomming a member of Division 4. For ASHA members who have the CCC
and have at least 5 years post CFY experience, this can be accomplished by contacting ASHA and asking
about joining the special interest division. There are several other advantages in becoming an affiliate of
Division 4 including an informative newsletter and a yearly conference in a neat place dealing with interesting

Creating Change

From: Denise
Date: 10/19/99
Time: 1:55:00 PM
Remote Name:


Do you have any suggestions on how to explain anatomy and physiology of speaking to school-age stutters?

Re: Creating Change

From: Walt Manning
Date: 10/19/99
Time: 5:01:29 PM
Remote Name:



Many of the SFA materials - especially the video tapes for young children do this pretty well. Tape # 79 has a
section with Dr. Peter Ramig demonstrating the "speech helpers". Anything you can do to explain the basics of
the A&P in a basic manner- drawings, modeling, etc. will probably be a help and make it more exciting for a
young child. It also helps to give them a sense of power over their speaking mechanism in particular and their
body in general. Any of the SFA tapes dealing with younger/school age children will also be a help in
identifying other important features - e.g. shame and guilt. Tape 85 by Kristin Chemla is especially good.
Lastly, I'd have my clients check out the Stuttering Home Page for ideas and general information about the
speech production mechanism. Hope this helps. 

Surface Features & Features under the Surface

From: Steve Hood
Date: 10/19/99
Time: 2:32:12 PM
Remote Name:


Walt -- GREAT Paper. Fantastic. 

I've had the honor of hearing some of these ideas before: At the ASHA Recovery Panel, your Key Note
address to the NSP Conference in Buffalo, and your Chapter in Advice to Those Who Stutter. Here, in your
ISAD paper, you've captured the best from the other sources, and bundled them into one paper. you've done a
great job with this. 

I think that distinguising the "surface features" from the deeper issues "under the surface" is really important.
Clinical approaches that just work on surface features may provide some temporary relief, but long term
change, and more importantly the maintenance of changes over the long haul, require getting below the
surface. Resources such as those provided by the NSA, the SFA, and support groups go a long way toward
helping the PWS get below the surface. 

THANKS for your fine contribution to ISAD. 

Steve Hood

Re: Surface Features & Features under the Surface

From: Walt Manning
Date: 10/19/99
Time: 4:52:46 PM
Remote Name:



Thanks for your nice comments...lest we sound like a mutual admiration society, I've enjoyed reading your
down-to-earth responses to the papers on this conference. I think that one of the things that distinguishes the
more experienced CLINICIANS is the ability to appreciate how the features under the surface influence the
surface behaviors. Whenever I can get my nonstuttering students to understand that I feel pretty good.

Outline for Change

From: Karla Becker
Date: 10/21/99
Time: 3:17:48 PM
Remote Name:


Thank you for providing terminology that makes the process of change for stutterers much easier to
understand.Your explanation of "surface" vs. "under the surface" features provides an excellent resource for
outlining the steps that stutterers progress through in order to produce changes in not only outward stuttering,
but in inward attitudes. Thanks.