Prior Therapy? From: Judy Kuster Date: 10/1/99 Time: 10:48:52 AM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments Thank you for your interesting accounts. They all provide insight into Van Riper that one cannot read in a text! Did any of you have any speech therapy prior to college? Judy Re: Prior Therapy? From: Gretchen Fifer Date: 10/1/99 Time: 3:25:22 PM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments Yes, and I will never forget the day Eve Burdick (the ST) came into the 6th grade class room and the teacher pointed at me and one other girl that I knew "talked funny." I was sent to speech in the 7th grade, but I never liked it and I know that she was on the right track with her therapy ideas -- she was using the book "Know Yourself" by Bryngleson. It was me that failed at therapy, not her. Denial, denial. Gretchen Previous therapy From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/2/99 Time: 8:50:01 PM Remote Name: 152.163.207.54 Comments Back in the dark ages, 1930's one was luck (?) to find a person who could treat stuttering. They were usually a singing coach, a "former" stutterer, friend or relative. I had them all. When I went to school, about the 40's the school that I went to had a qualified SLP, but I didnt want to be different so I rejected therapy. Pretty dumb eh? How different can a hard core stutterer be anyway? I remember a voice coach who was so pleased that I could say my name one time that she ran out into the hall and called to one of her peers to come in an listen to her prized pupil say his name. What a surprise was in store. This person entered the room and, of course,I couldn't talk. Ha Ha. Re: Previous therapy From: agnello Date: 10/2/99 Time: 9:54:18 PM Remote Name: 205.183.16.150 Comments I should tell that story about when u were stopped for speeding in that little town of Stevens Point u, maxine, and I had to tell the officer our names and all three of us had the twisted tongue curse,,,,and could not say our names.... Joe Agnello From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/2/99 Time: 8:56:44 PM Remote Name: 152.163.207.54 Comments I guess my first post didn't go thru to you, so I willtry again. I can't imagine you, the original bull in a china shop, being intimidated by anyone. Your students must really appreciate your many stuttering stories. You are a really bright guy and I am happy to learn of your many achievements. Maxine sends her best. Gretchen Fifer From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/2/99 Time: 9:01:32 PM Remote Name: 152.163.207.54 Comments What a surprise! Glad to hear that you are still kicking. Old memories don't die do they. Stuttering is a never ending battle,but it can be licked to the satisfaction of the person and you are a good example. gretchen fifer From: agnello Date: 10/2/99 Time: 10:14:22 PM Remote Name: 205.183.16.150 Comments great to hear from u....I always thaught u were pretty neat...glad hear your doing so well Time, Objectivity, and Allegiance From: Joe Kalinowski Date: 10/4/99 Time: 12:36:05 PM Remote Name: 150.216.147.209 Comments I was recently talking to a doctoral student of ours at ECU and wondering where stuttering research and therapy was going. I suggested a parallelism between stuttering therapy, psychoanalysis, Communism, the United States (Civil War) and other areasÉit seems that between 50 and 75 years is where we see the making or breaking of ideas--after the founders have passed on and issues of allegiance and indebtedness have recededÉ I suggested that we are now at a point when the cohesiveness of the trailblazers and their indebtedness of gratitude towards the "fathers of the field" (which does not allow for questioning of technique and purpose) is at an end. We will now see the true lasting power of the Van Riperian, Johnsonian, Sheehan etc.. schemata without the passion of allegiance, trust, and indebtedness É. Time will be the final judge of the value of their works--and all of our worksÉ.. When we are too close to a topic or too aligned to a school of thought or an individual --we can never have objective distanceÉ. Just to let you know-- some of Van Riper's letters to me are framed and on my wall in my officeÉ. not too much distance here Re: Time, Objectivity, and Allegiance From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/6/99 Time: 10:32:55 AM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments Don't confuse old memories with the reality that things do change. I appreciate your saying that letters from the past adorne your walls. Mine are in my memory, but I have learned that people change and my profession has changed too. You and your research are a prime example of that. But, I learned too that humanism is a part of the best therapy that we have to offer. The cookbook experts treat and want everyone to be the same. Poor souls, they just don't get it! Our brothers and sisters deserve much more than that. And those that hide behind their "perfect" research studies without stating their type of therapy for all of us to see and learn from don't get it either. I am sick and tired of reading all the footnotes and the pompous statistics without their own study of the application of their therapy. Where to Brutus? Let's move forward and share our therapies. Thanks for your reasoned observations. Re: Time, Objectivity, and Allegiance From: Andrew Stuart Date: 10/6/99 Time: 1:32:16 PM Remote Name: 150.216.147.118 Comments As an audiologist by trade, I sit for the most part as an observer and only sometimes participate in the field of stuttering. The times when I enter the arena of stuttering I must acquiesce to those more learned and versed in the field. Not being my chosen field, I do, however, have an advantage of not having any vested interested in anyoneÕs dogma. On that note, let me begin by saying it is at times like this that I must admit both amusement and awe with the field of stuttering when I read statements like those of Dr. JohnsonÕs. I am not about to knock humanism as a corner stone of any therapeutic milieu. I do take offence, however, with anyone who can not see what research has to offer therapy. Well-controlled clinical research studies can eventually lead to more effective therapy techniques. Audiology has recognized "evidence-based" approaches that "de-emphasize intuition and unsystematic clinical experience as the grounds for clinical decision-making and stresses the examination of evidence from clinical research" (e.g., Bess, F.H. 1995. Evidence-based audiology. American Journal of Audiology, 4(2), 5). It may be high time that those interested in successful therapy pay more attention to and/or participate in some serious research activity. It is often the case that when successful therapy outcomes are observed clinicians contend the therapy is responsible and when therapy is not successful the patient is to blame (e.g., "You are not using your targets."). In other words, the efficacy of therapy is irrefutable. Siegel has echoed such opinion by stating unequivocally that "we do not need science to establish that therapy works" (Siegel, G. 1987. Limits of science in communication disorders. Journal of Speech and Hearing Disorders, 52, p. 310). Siegel, to my disbelief, discourages research evaluating the efficacy of therapy since "no experimental outcome would convince a clinician that therapy does not work, and ... [it is not] useful to do research when only one outcome would be accepted" (p. 310). I believe contrary to those who embrace a forgone conclusion, without empiricism one will never know which therapy is successful. Sharing therapy techniques, Dr. Johnson, is not the answer. "Hiding behind research" is not the answer either. Systematically evaluating fluency-enhancing techniques empirically and implementing proven evidence-based approaches in therapy is. Anything short of that is an injustice to those who stutter. A good first step might be to read the footnotes and understand the statistics in all of those empirical studies. Re: Time, Objectivity, and Allegiance From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/20/99 Time: 2:38:57 PM Remote Name: 205.188.200.47 Comments Hi Andrew: People who know me cant figure me out either. I have read many studies over the years and have always gotten some nugget or two, even tho too often the researchers have stated that there sample was small and caution should be used when applying the outcome of the study. I really tried to stir the pot with my comments so as to make the researchers take a stand as to the application of their research. In truth, I have always found it difficult to separate out fact from the mystical relationship between clinician and client. How does one do this? Question for Gretchen Fifer From: M. Lane Date: 10/5/99 Time: 11:33:39 AM Remote Name: 150.216.16.130 Comments Ms. Fifer, I am a grad student in SLP at East carolina University. I have a report due on Symptom Modification therapy. You said you often go back to the "modification" phase even now. What about this phase has particulary helped you? Are you still an advocate of this method? Thanks, Meredith in NC Re: Question for Gretchen Fifer From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/6/99 Time: 10:29:17 AM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments Hi Meredith: I hope you don't mind my responding to your question, which is very perceptive on your part. What do symptomatic therapy participants do long term? Practice, practice, practice. But this is the nature of symptomatic therapy--it gives you something to do when you find yourself in trouble. This is the good thing about it. You learn the tools for long term maintenance of your therapy. We hard-core stutterers need to learn these tools, but you don't have to start at the beginning with cancellation, but you can if the moment is too traumatic. Don't forget, symptomatice modification also involves the symptom of fear, avoidance, etc. The best way to keep all of this alive long term is to think of these tools as friends (crutches?) that you can use. I was going to say, most of us, but that might be true: I almost always go to the concept of the proper attitude along with pull-outs. But after all, I have been doing this for some 45 years now. I also find that the simpliest technique is to not be afraid, but that might not always be as simple as it sounds. Talk, talk, talk, but when in trouble go back to the basics. I would recommend one of VR's early articles on Symptomatic Therapy for Stuttering in the Travis: Handbook of Speech Pathology and Audiology. In my opinion this is an excellent chapter. Cheers. Re: Question for Gretchen Fifer From: m lane Date: 10/6/99 Time: 2:03:19 PM Remote Name: 150.216.146.140 Comments thank you, Mr. Johnson, for your comments. i will certainly try to review Travis' book that you recommended. any additional information that you have to share about Van Riper's methods would be greatly appreciated. meredith To: Jerry Johnson & Joe Kalinowski From: Gunars K. Neiders Date: 10/15/99 Time: 5:52:12 PM Remote Name: 12.13.226.15 Comments Jerry Johnson and Joe When I hear a good discussion, I have a hard time keeping out of it. Jerry, you mentioned the magic term "attitude", "anxiety", or "fear" (the way I use them they often serve as synonyms). I believe that Wendell Johnson was able to himself adjust these, because of his immersion in General Semantics, but really did not provide an easy paradigm for teaching the person who stutters how to achieve an optimum mind set. With the advent of semantically oriented cognitive psychology, we now have tools to address the alteration of attitudes [almost] directly. (cf. see rational emotive behavior therapy and the ABC paradigm of emotions.) Why am I inserting comments about Johnsonian approach in Riperian discussion? Because there is nothing truly contradictory in both of their approaches. When used synergistically the advantages of semantic therapy, where the validity and utility of self-talk is examined can be combined with the availability of using stuttering modification techniques to get us through the rough moments of speech. Nor does the behaviorstic approach invalidate both the Johnsonian and Van Riperian approaches. For example, W.G. Webster and M. Poulos' (1989) manual of Facilitating fluency combined Precision Fluency Shaping with REBT, a semantic cognitive behavioral therapy that is very much based on General Semantics, just like W. Johnson's thoughts. Another very good example is H. D. Schwartz (1999) who has a chapter on "Counseling persons who stutter". Describing his stuttering therapy, Schwartz (1999) states, "Upon initial inspection, our program may be viewed as a fluency shaping program É[however,] we place a great deal of emphasis on the client's emotions and emotional reactions associated with stuttering." What am I trying to say? That we best get away from the either/or attitude that has so long been one of the dominant elements in the field of stuttering therapy and turn more to both/and inclusive attitude. The same goes for scientific versus non-scientific approaches. In the modern philosophy of science, we allow for constructs that at the moment cannot be empirically validatable due to our lack of ingenuity or absence of instruments of measuring some items on an objective scale. For example, at the moment we may not be able to measure empirically the degree of situational or word anxiety, as well as guilt and shame, but who is to say that in the future some modern day Rutherford, or Newton will not devise a way of how to indirectly measure emotions on an objective scale. Until that time, I think, we do not throw out the common observation that communicative stress plays a role in stuttering severity, but handle it with less than perfect scientific paradigm. I agree with Joe Kalinowski's "Time, Objectivity and Allegiance" that sometimes only the dying out of the erstwhile "True Believers" (see "The True Believer: Thoughts on Nature of Mass Movements" by Eric Hoffer and "The Nature of Scientific Revolutions" by Kuhn) brings rational sense or the next evolutionary or revolutionary step in the field. Yet is seems silly to have to wait that long. In summary, I know I have wanderer all over the map, and maybe even navigated over the end of the world, but I truly do not think that much of what has been said in the field of stuttering therapy has been wrong except when the followers of one school of thought have stated that the followers of another school are wrong. I agree with Woody Starkweather that there are many roads out of the woods of self-downing, struggling stuttering. (For some of us being in a clearing is good enough, when we can without any significant anxiety, self-downing, guilt or shame and without any significant struggle pursue the rewards of being alive, a moveable feast.) But just like in the field of physics we can strive for a "unified field theory" where all the known cases of spontaneous recovery (which indeed may hold the key to future directions in stuttering therapy) as well as the successes of therapy can be explained. Thus, I believe the outcome measures best include everything from counting of disfluencies and measuring the severity of secondary symptoms such as tics (the impairment) to the disability and finally the handicap. (See definition of impairment, disability and handicap in Yaruss ISAD 1998 paper). Gunars Dr. Van and his therapy From: Walt Manning Date: 10/5/99 Time: 3:40:56 PM Remote Name: 141.225.97.53 Comments I have shown the "Van Riper Tapes" of Van conducting therapy with Jeff in my classes for many years. Since the series was taped in the 1970s a number of things have changed including styles of dress and hair. Other changes include aspects of "political correctness" (gender comments). My point is this: I think the tapes provide a wonderful example of therapeutic change, as well as Dr. Van's skill as a clinician including his unafraid attitude about stuttering, his sense of humor, and his ability to go right to the core of Jeff's behavior and attitude about stuttering. My current student, however, find many of his techniques and mannerisms gruff and somewhat offensive. I'm wondering if any of you know of examples (beyond some of those already discussed in your papers) where Dr. Van went a little "too far" and, as a result, pushed clients away from or out of therapy. After many viewings, I continue to enjoy and learn from these tapes. But for some of my(graduate)students (generally female)the experience of watching the tapes seems to be somewhat offensive for them. Some of my students from the south (the majority) suspect that his behavior can be explained because he was a "Yankee". Now that should solicit some comments from Ya'll. Re: Dr. Van and his therapy From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/6/99 Time: 1:20:23 PM Remote Name: 205.188.196.26 Comments Hi Ya'll: Yup, no doubt about it Dr. Van was quick to catch on to the foibles and strengths of the client. Sometimes too quick I must admit, but why not cut to the chase? As a rule Van would only take on a client for one semester and he set the ground rules too. Do what I think you must do and do it now or get the hell out of the program. Now that is pretty crass dont you think? But on the other hand we all know that if you have been beaten-up all your life because you stutter you might have some pretty thin skin. I think Dr. Van's philosophy was the tougher the better. How else would the stutterer be willing to do all the outside assignments..to be asked to do the one thing that was felt to be impossible: stutter, stutter, stutter openly, without shame, guilt, hostility toward oneself and ones listener. Althou;gh I do remember something being said about getting even with the listener too. One has to go beyond the outward appearance of the man and look to the core of his persona. Dr. Van was a trickster, he had a twinkle in his eye and his motive, he knew how to touch the persons inner core. He had been there too, but never attempted to set himself up as an example for all the follow. You had to find yourself and the road would be pretty rocky. Tough, yes, compassionate, yes, but he also wanted to have each person achieve his ultimate potential and gave him/her the tools to continue to do so long after therapy was over. He also wanted his students to believe in themselves too and not to melt when confronted with a person who might have many many needs. Stand tall, look em in the eye, and when the command to fire comes through you must go for it. We Yankees are tough, but we are lovable too. Dr. Manning's students are lucky to have him as their mentor Re: Dr. Van and his therapy From: agnello Date: 10/7/99 Time: 6:00:41 AM Remote Name: 216.68.31.16 Comments jerry... Great response concerning Van's character/therapy "style" u can also get this info about the man throufh his Northwoods Readers. Re: Dr. Van and his therapy From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/6/99 Time: 3:40:13 PM Remote Name: 205.188.193.54 Comments OOPS! I guess I didn't answer the question about the number of people who dropped out. We started with 10 people, as I remember it, and I am guessing that about 4 dropped out. I am sorry that I cannot supply the particulars about why they left the program. We must remember that hard-core stutterers bring a surplus of negative conditioned responses to the table and sometimes it is very difficult to overcome some of them, maybe the most important ones to the client. Self-confrontation even with expert guidance is a tough, tough thing to do. Maybe Van should have had a branching program to take care of those who needed more time or a different direction or a different, more supportive type of therapy. I am glad I didn't drop out because I married my bride of some 44+ years from that program. I do remember Dr. Van telling the student clinicians that if they ever dated one of us they would be bounced out of his program. Ha, ha, wink, wink--we NEVER did that!!!!! Re: Dr. Van and his therapy From: Steve Hood Date: 10/6/99 Time: 8:47:57 PM Remote Name: 205.188.192.37 Comments Commenting on what Walt Manning wrote --- I have also shown the VR Tapes from the 70's. Each year, I seem to get something new out of them. Some students appear boared, and some react negatively to Van's manner. i try to forwarn them and put things into perspective. None the less, the tapes show a lot about therapy. For some who may now know this, there is now a 20 year follow-up. About 6 months after Van's death, Western Michigan held a "wake" in his honor. Jeff, the PWS from the tapes was there, and he was interviewed by Barry Guitar. Jeff and barry reflect back on Van as a person, and Van as the clinician in the video tapes. Insights from both Jeff and from barry are insightful, and help give some closure to tapes of 20+s earlier. Thought this might be of interest. Steve Hood Re: Dr. Van and his therapy From: Woody Starkweather Date: 10/7/99 Time: 4:03:42 PM Remote Name: 155.247.229.217 Comments Hi Walt: It was a different era, wasn't it? When I edited Van's autobiography, there were many places where those differences came up. I left most of them in, figuring people would understand how much had changed since the 30's. Reading the accounts of his former clients, I was struck by Van's ability to combine compassion and confrontation, support and challenge. I guess, since some people got offended and dropped out, that he may have overdone the confrontation on occasions. My tendency is the opposite, and that's why Van was such a great mentor for me. I needed to learn to take the chance and challenge my clients so that they could find out how much challenge they could meet. That way, we can create independence, not dependence. Woody Re: Dr. Van and his therapy From: Agnello Date: 10/9/99 Time: 1:57:33 AM Remote Name: 216.68.66.71 Comments Manning....your right Van was totally unafraid of stuttering and any personality traits/or facade as a deceptive means of covertly dealing with the stuttering problem. He was extremely cleaver in revealing what he so in a very diplomatic way....and certainly not in an abbussive way. I know of no one that quit the program in my for years with Van. I* also remember Van saying he carefully picked thos he allowed to come into his therapy group were only those that did not have some "big scars". Those that quit in mid-stream may have done so because the task ahead without the facade was a too frightening task (future). Toughness, scars, and sensitivity From: Gunars K. Neiders Date: 10/15/99 Time: 6:20:10 PM Remote Name: 12.13.226.11 Comments y'all, As somebody who has had at least 17 therapies under my belt, and having dropped out only when they no longer seemed to help me, I wonder if this could not have been a valid case also in many of the instances with Van Riper. I maintain that until I combined work via semantic therapy on my emotions directly, the problem of creating my own communicative stress precluded me from doing any useful Van Riperian work. As for toughness, I remember a conversation that Gardner Gatelely and I had at the San Diego SID4. He said that one of his best successes was a teen age kid who came in with his mom, smirked all the way through the interview and otherwise had an arrogant air about him. When Gardner asked him whose I idea it was to come to the therapy, the kid just smiled and pointed at his mom. After a few more questions Gardner said he laid it on the line. "The choice is yours, son. You can go through the life with a stutter that bothers both you and other people who interact with you. Or you can work hard. And believe me, it will be hard and difficult work and adjust to life. (He said that he uses also rational emotive behavior therapy with his clients, and so works both on their attitudes and on their speech.) Gardner said he finished by telling the teenager, that until he is committed to work harder at this than at anything else he has worked on in his life, he might as well not come back. Then he sent him home with something like this, "Until you decide to do something about your speech, don't harken my doorstep." Next week at the appointed time the teenager was not there. Just about the time when he thought that he was about to give up on him, the kid turned up all out of breath. He had run more than five miles, to get to Gardner's office, because something turned up and his aunt was not able to take him. Ultimately, I think that we have to without blame give the client the option to work and if necessarily provide him with the proper self-talk, such as "I know this is the hardest thing that I have ever done, but I am tough and I can do it, because some of the people who my therapist has introduced me to also were able to do it. But above all we must convince the client that a) stuttering does not make him a fool or a louse, and b) that stuttering is not awful, that the client has enough resources to stand it and work it, even with tears in his eyes. Gunars Therapy "assignments" From: Darci Samuelson Date: 10/6/99 Time: 4:52:28 PM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments One of you mentioned that you remember well the assignments you were asked to do in your therapy with Van Riper (the thin sheets of copy paper with about 4-6 different things to do!). Can anyone share what some of those assignments were? Were they the same for everyone, or were they geared to each individual? Thanks, Darci Re: Therapy "assignments" From: Gretchen Fifer Date: 10/6/99 Time: 4:53:24 PM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments I believe they were all the same as why else would they be several copies made at one time? But, I am not sure. I remember well the one I hated to do (and did not do) - Call your dorm and ask to talk to the girl who stutters. Many of them involved calling assignments. I have looked for those sheets but I don't think I have any of them left. Those were the days before I loved the field of Speech Therapy. Gretchen Re: Therapy "assignments" From: jerry johnson Date: 10/6/99 Time: 7:45:33 PM Remote Name: 152.163.197.199 Comments Hi Darci: You ask an excellent question. You would think that Van Riper would individualize his therapy to meet the needs of the individual. Well, as Gretchen points out, this couldn't be further from the truth as far as group therapy was concerned. You made me reach into the dim dark past, and a search through files upon files of "good stuff" that can't be chucked and lo and behold what did I come up with? Yup, you guessed it. Out of the paths of yesteryear a"Stuttering Therapy, Fall, 1952 passed before my eyes. The Aims were: "1. To decrease the stutterer's fears of words and situations; 2. To prevent stuttering blocks from being reinforced; 3. To uncondition and break up and weaken the old forms of stuttering; 4. To teach an effortless form of stuttering which society will not penalize; 5. To teach the stutterer to be his own clinician; 6. To make the stutterer a well-adjusted individual." Now, hows that? Is this from the past or the present? I have pages upon pages of stuff that is too lengthy to present here but upon your digging into the published information by and about Dr. Van you can get an idea about how demanding his approach was. To much to handle from the depths of despair? You can be the judge of that. Is this therapy Van Riper therapy for the weak at heart? I don't think so. If you don't stutter--count your blessings! Re: Therapy "assignments" From: agnello Date: 10/7/99 Time: 6:36:44 AM Remote Name: 216.68.66.6 Comments What ever comments or "assignments u got from Van they were often believed to be tailored for u. he was a wild crazy guy. It's no random occurence that the theme song from the movie "Dancing with Wolf" was in a video by his grandson(amore)... Van and I built a roaring fire in his back yard and danced around it while tearing off our clothes; ran through the corn field naked laughing at our tremendeous sense of discovred freedom. Therapy, life & being weak at heart From: Gunars K. Neiders Date: 10/15/99 Time: 6:37:52 PM Remote Name: 12.13.226.16 Comments Jerry, Somewhere else you talked about "Tough love". In order to break any kind of addiction, and stuttering can be thought of having some elements of addiction in it such as being addicted to the belief that "It is too hard to do voluntary stuttering." "I can't stand being rejected." "There should be an easy therapy." "The therapist should do all my work for me." etc., it is necessary to face the discomfort now in order to have future gain. Stoically one better face the discomfort and not make an impassable mountain range out of a fair size of a mountain. I have yet to see where the easy way out is anything but the easy way out of the true experience of life. All the mish mash that Martin Schwartz has written, does not undermine his ingenious naming of some of the exercises that he asks his cllients to do as the "TOUGHENING EXERCISES". We must toughen the clients, both philosophically and emotionally. I have a running battle with a teacher of stuttering therapy who thinks that his budding SLP's should not be exposed to go out and do voluntary or pseudo stuttering as a part of clinical training. He thinks some of them might quit the field if he would request them to do it. I think that would be a good deal for the profession. Because, how can you expect a client to form a tough mental attitude toward the inconveniences of doing speech exercises, if the therapist herself feels that this is too much for her to bear? Gunars changes between then and now From: Judy Kuster Date: 10/10/99 Time: 2:12:40 PM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments Can you describe the difference in your speech/communication style from when finally were able to get your stuttering out in the open, to how you see it now? Re: changes between then and now From: Gretchen Fifer Date: 10/10/99 Time: 2:14:55 PM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments Now we are going back such a long time. When I first became free of the hiding and denial I became more outgoing -- I could order lamb in a restaurant (and they didn't have any the first time I did it), Over the years I have changed a lot more because of Speech Therapy, and probably because of my education, and the times in which we live. I still have to monitor my speech, I still have bad and good talking days, and I still read everything I can find on the subject. I still catch myself avoiding situations. I still use different approaches. That is one of the most important things I learned from Dr. Van -- there is more than one way to make a difference. Re: changes between then and now From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/13/99 Time: 5:40:28 PM Remote Name: 152.163.213.73 Comments Good Question! Then was almost total inability to talk in a situation except if I got lucky. Started with VR at age 22. Thats when things got better. Was a successful university teacher for over 29 years and could really talk with minor stutterings. Monitor, monitor, monitor: what a pain in the butt, but it kept therapy alive all these years. Have given many presentations that I think were just fine. The demon is still with me and will be till? I tell a story that some stutterers think is funny and others might not, but it goes like this. I die and of course go to stuttering heaven. St. Pete is at the gate and welcomes me and says I have some good news and some bad news. What do you want to hear first. I say, well, how about the good news first. Pete says, Welcome, you don't stutter any more. The bad news is you're dead. End of story. We hard-core stutterers surely have a cross to bear, but what the hell, there are much worse things to bear. In fact, I think that my stuttering made me more sensitive to "stuff and junk" around me and has made me a better clinician to other people who stutter, while not holding myself up as their "way to be." Re: changes between then and now From: agnello Date: 10/16/99 Time: 5:45:20 PM Remote Name: 205.183.16.110 Comments Before I started therapy with Van, I was in constant and terrible conflict over speaking. I literally avoided speech. With Van, I was able to eliminate about 90 percent of the severe blocking and no longer avoided speech situations. I had plenty of stuttering after leaving Van, but was able to express large 'chunks' of thought. The more I talked, the better I spoke. After about three years--and many relapses--I was almost fluent. The relapses still occur, but they are few and far between. They are readily managed by applying the controls I learned with Van and continue to pass on to my own students and clients. For a college education or for therapy initially? From: Judy Date: 10/16/99 Time: 2:57:42 PM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments How did you end up at Michigan? Did you go there to study to be an SLP or did you go there initially because you wanted speech therapy? Re: For a college education or for therapy initially? From: Gretchen Fifer Date: 10/16/99 Time: 2:58:25 PM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments When I was a Junior in High School our Journalism teacher took 5 of us girls to Lower Michigan (I was from the Upper Peninsula and that was probably the 3rd or 4th time I had ever been below the Straits of Mackinac) and we visited 5 colleges. I liked the looks of Western so I went there to be a Home Ec Teacher. I guess it was fate as I knew nothing about Speech Therapy at the college level. (we never had a Speech Therapist in our schools until I was in the 7th grade) When the chemistry teacher suggested I go to Speech Therapy I did not know I was going to be with the best there was. Van Riper Videos, with Jeff From: Steve Hood Date: 10/16/99 Time: 10:12:03 PM Remote Name: 205.188.193.182 Comments I really appreciate you all taking the time to reflect upon your therapy with Doc Van. I was never his client, and did not attend Western Michigan. But I learned of him, and later worked with him closely, through some of my stuff with the Stuttering Foundation of America. I show portions of the tapes of Van, working with Jeff Adamsak, back in the 1970's. Of course the tapes are age-dated....as one would expect. But the goals, procedures, etc, strike me as highly appropriate My questions: 1. Have you seen the Van Riper tapes with Jeff? 2. What are your reactions to them?? 3. Have you seen the 20-year follow up, which as a interviw of Jeff by Barry Guitar. It was taped at the "memorial wake" for Van the spring term ater his death. Barry interviewed Jeff about this video taped therapy. What are your thoughts Hope you can share your insights. thanks, Steve Hood Re: Van Riper Videos, with Jeff From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/20/99 Time: 2:30:40 PM Remote Name: 205.188.200.47 Comments Steve: Yes I have seen and used the VR tapes in the past, but I found them too dated so I put them in the media room for those students who were interested in them to view them on their own time. Since I always did demonstration therapy with clients of all ages the students did get to observe therapy on a first hand basis. I also video taped entire therapy with various clients that I was involved in too. These ran much longer than the VR tapes and were unedited. I also hosted a self-help group AIMS: American Institute for the Management of Stuttering for graduate student participation. I think I was at Western when these tapes were being made, but I cant recall for sure. I do remember VR commenting upon doing them and how nervous he was about doing it. I have not seen the follow-up so I cant comment upon it. Jerry Johnson From: Johanna Wallace Date: 10/17/99 Time: 2:55:02 PM Remote Name: 4.16.144.156 Comments I am a first year graduate student, but this is my first fluency class. I appreciate your insights of Dr. Van Riper's therapy. It is very helpful to hear how it has affected your life. Re: Jerry Johnson From: jerry Date: 10/17/99 Time: 8:14:59 PM Remote Name: 152.163.207.82 Comments Hi Johanna: Thanks for reading through all this stuff. I found my learning to be greatly enhanced by listening to the people who have gone through the gates of hell. This includes everyone, clients, parents, kids, whomever. Good luck to you. Be a good listener. Jerry Johnson From: Gay Camagong Date: 10/17/99 Time: 3:08:47 PM Remote Name: 4.16.144.156 Comments I enjoyed reading your comments about Dr. Van Riper's therapy. I am a first year graduate student and in my class we've begun viewing Dr. Van Riper's therapy approaches with Jeff. I enjoyed the story about the hundred dollar bill. It's good to know that there is a homepage for individuals who stutter, where they can share or voice their thoughts and opinions. Re: Jerry Johnson From: Jerry Date: 10/17/99 Time: 8:17:22 PM Remote Name: 152.163.207.82 Comments Hi Gay: Glad you read through all the information on Dr. Van. He was quite a guy. Take a peek at my comments to Johanna because the same apply to you. People who stutter need great clinicans and you young people can be the wave of the future. Jerry Johnson: Van Riper Experiments From: Jerry Johnson Date: 10/17/99 Time: 9:12:18 PM Remote Name: 152.163.213.69 Comments I dont know why, but we have not mentioned the chapter in Eisenson "Stuttering, A Symposium by Van Riper "Experiments in Stuttering Therapy." He takes the reader through 1936-1957. Those of you who asked about specific assignments given to the PWS will find many examples. Check it out, it is a learning experience and even fun to read. Gives one the sense of complexity of the disorder. Good reading. Question for Joseph G. Agnello From: Candace Nicole Casiday Date: 10/17/99 Time: 9:47:53 PM Remote Name: 205.188.193.48 Comments I thoroughly enjoyed reading your work on stuttering and was very fascinated that you were a former client of Charles Van Riper. I have just one question to ask you about your work with Van Riper. What is the most influential therapeutic technique gained from your experiences with Charles Van Riper and how have you applied this knowledge in your therapy sessions? Re: Question for Joseph G. Agnello From: agnello Date: 10/19/99 Time: 9:31:01 PM Remote Name: 205.183.16.92 Comments Candace: This is my 3rd attempt to answer your question....I'll have to answer it again later...sorry My server keeps shutting down...and consequently loses the mesage Best JGA Question for Joseph G. Agnello From: Candace Nicole Casiday Date: 10/17/99 Time: 9:48:40 PM Remote Name: 205.188.193.48 Comments I thoroughly enjoyed reading your work on stuttering and was very fascinated that you were a former client of Charles Van Riper. I have just one question to ask you about your work with Van Riper. What is the most influential therapeutic technique gained from your experiences with Charles Van Riper and how have you applied this knowledge in your therapy sessions? Re: Question for Joseph G. Agnello From: Agnello Date: 10/19/99 Time: 9:16:06 PM Remote Name: 205.183.16.92 Comments Candice: Did u get my answer? I wrote a lengthy reply...but before I sent it my server shut down and I believe I lost it, Maybe Judy can find it in the knot of the threded web. I"ll answere it again too sleepy..best joe Re: Question for Joseph G. Agnello From: agnello Date: 10/22/99 Time: 5:01:43 PM Remote Name: 205.183.16.96 Comments Candace....Those techmiques that reduced the avoidance..and the change in attitude that essentially went along with this lack of fear/or sense of rejection if I stuttered. Like the NIAKI ad just: "Do it" too hell with the consequences.Just keep talking and experimenting with the "controls". The controls turn out to be just good efficient speech skill. But I believe this was all possible because of Van total confidence in me. Van was a free spirit and had the tremendeous ability to look beyond the stutter and know the ;potential of his "clients"...but I never felt like a case/or client/or stutterer when I was with Vanand after I left Van this attitude remained with me to this day....This is what I try to pass on and I believe its been the key to my "cure' and the success I've had as a therapist... You too can do it...Its a wonderful sense of freedom that Van helped me to obtain...but it took time and at some point in the three years post Van it became less and less painful and consequently a pleasure to talk,,,,I hope I gave you a clear answer to your question. Just go ahead and test out some of these controls/attitutes/felling/try to become objective about the way u talk,think/fell....Best JGA Client of Charles VanRiper From: Kimberly Smith Date: 10/18/99 Time: 7:44:26 PM Remote Name: 152.163.204.30 Comments Do you feel exposing suttering clients to outside clinical assignments helps to reduce dysfluencies in their speech? If so why. Re: Client of Charles VanRiper From: agnello Date: 10/19/99 Time: 11:05:24 AM Remote Name: 205.183.16.92 Comments Just simply exposing stutter behavior outside of the "clinical" environment would be of little use ...unless the pws is well informed on what to expect and what to do and in the event of "success" or "failure" be able to discuss the various alternatiive proactive strategies as opposed to the reactive (failure) behavior so often expressed . It also depends on the pws. Some pws have plenty of talking time outside and some pws may have zero time. Those that have "zero time" it could be a very frigenting experience and if not properly coached could be set up for "big time failure' JGA avoidance From: tom Date: 10/21/99 Time: 3:41:48 PM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments what kinds of situations were you good at avoiding? Re: avoidance From: Gretchen Fifer Date: 10/21/99 Time: 3:42:30 PM Remote Name: 134.29.30.79 Comments Stutterers are world's best avoiders. In High School I never did my Latin assignments (and I nearly flunked Latin) because every day the teacher went up and down each aisle and we had to translate out loud. I could not do it so I never studied so when I said I hadn't done the assignment, I would not be lying. I could avoid words I saw coming in a sentence, I avoided receiving lines, I avoided any and all situations where you had to introduce yourself. I could go on and on. Gretchen